Saturday, January 30, 2010

What real value in coerced confession ?

Omar Khadr's incarceration at Guantanamo is ongoing.
He is a Canadian Citizen, who was 15 yrs old at the time of his arrest

The Supreme Court in Canada has ruled his right to life, liberty and security under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms were violated.

Khadr was interrogated in a 'coercive' manner by American and Canadian officials.
Anything he 'confessed' to in these interrogation sessions can be used against him.

“Canadian officials questioned Mr. Khadr on matters that may have provided important evidence relating to his criminal proceedings, in circumstances where they knew that Mr. Khadr was being indefinitely detained, was a young person, and was alone during the interrogations,” they said.

“Interrogation of a youth to elicit statements about the most serious criminal charges – while detained in these conditions and without access to counsel and while knowing the fruits of the interrogations would be shared with the U.S. prosecutors – offends the most basic Canadian standards about the treatment of detained youth suspects.”


Here is an interrogation of a young man who unbelievably, though he was completely innocent, confessed to the murder of his own sister. Thankfully evidence cleared him.

Watch the video



Then go here and watch the excerpted interrogation of Khadr.

Ask yourself this question, what value lies in coerced confessions ?
(If unfamiliar with the case, click on the Khadr label below)

8 comments:

  1. The major point of torture (aimed at the victims) and terror (aimed at those that identify with the victim) and for the torturer and his superiors is to replace God in the minds of the targets with the torturer (and his superiors).

    Another related point is to attempt to prove to the torturers themselves, the targets and to the wider disinterested audience, that the torturers can create their own reality and prove they are God(s). Thus the necessity of the false confessions and the repeating of them as if they are fact. They think that if they say it enough times and present enough lies it will become fact. The concepts of 'truth' and 'lies' are meaningful to us but not to psychopaths. To them, things are only ever useful or not. Everything is malleable to their own intention because they're God after all (in their own minds, of course).

    Repetition is key and the silencing of dissent also. Don't want to break the spell, now!
    Hence, Penny, the value of this and other blogs.

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  2. Hey james

    those are some interesting thoughts there...

    If I may, I think what you are saying is torture is useful to those practicing it, because it empowers them (in many ways)through the creation of a false reality, which they can then preach the righteousness of the false reality to others..

    To use a religious angle....

    So we have a prophet, who is employing torture to prove the righteousness of that which he does, and he can in turn go out to the masses, preaching the value of his torture as good and right, therefore perpetuating his own myth or reality of godliness?

    God talk about your altered realities!!

    When I saw this, I thought of all the times, I had read "well he confessed" Why would he do that unless he was really guilty?

    But, clearly from this little video, guilt may have nothing to do with it.

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  3. "God talk about your altered realities!!"

    Yes, exactly, Penny. Welcome to the wonderful world of evil! The deeper you go, the worse it gets. The flabbergasting part is that it was all in front of your eyes the whole time.

    "When I saw this, I thought of all the times, I had read "well he confessed" Why would he do that unless he was really guilty?"

    The 'why' is to avoid pain. The victim has a HUGE incentive to work out what the torturer wants to hear and tell them that to stop the pain (or potential pain to themselves or others such as family or friends).

    Realising this, protesters against torture claim torture is ineffective at getting reliable, true information out of the victim. Which is true if you think that this is the aim of the torturers; but it almost never is. The aim is precisely to get the victims to say what they, the torturers, want to hear. (They are God and they are creating reality.)

    They also know that, to some extent at least, the 'confession' will take on some level of reality in the mind of the 'confessor'. At the very least, the victim will spend an inordinate amount of time and energy fighting the proposition(s) in their own mind.

    Putting propositions into the mind of a victim using trauma works in all sorts of ways. This works with whole populations, too. For example, 'Shock and Awe' in Iraq, the continual replaying of the attack on the WTC on the teevee and the decades long brutalisation of the Palestinians. It is to break peoples minds and get them to accept a lie as truth.

    Torture is not about getting information out but, rather, putting information in.

    "guilt may have nothing to do with it.".
    Yes, guilt has nothing to do with it in terms of fact. But, perversely, in terms of feelings, guilt may very well be induced in the minds of the victims through the torture process itself. A secondary aim is to transfer the guilt, blame and shame of the torturers (or perps) onto the victims. This aspect is readily seen in the cases of child sexual abuse and domestic violence.

    This is another glimpse into the nature and the workings of evil. Everything is reversed

    ReplyDelete
  4. I think that torture would work both to obtain a fake confession or to get details to a real crime.

    If you knew a few details of a crime but your victim did not know you knew certain details, you could torture your victim until his story added up with yours. Sad but true.

    The real problems in the world are (1) Secret societies, (2)Secret self governance of professionals. Take those two things away, judges and lawyers become honest and the fake money system falls apart. Politicians become honest and a new money system takes its place.

    The benefits of torture are such that it will always be practised.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Doug wrote,
    "I think that torture would work both to obtain a fake confession or to get details to a real crime.
    How are you going to know the difference, the truth? The uncertainty inherent in torture because of the incentive to lie on the part of the victim negates any utility. You assuming a genuine desire to know the truth, in the first place, on the part of the torturer which there rarely is, as I said. The character of anyone who would torture someone else is one that places power as more important than truth. Power corrupts the mind; power distorts perception of right and wrong, truth and lies.

    "If you knew a few details of a crime but your victim did not know you knew certain details, you could torture your victim until his story added up with yours. Sad but true."
    Sadly, untrue. You still can't be certain. I haven't even started on what it does to the torturer, his superiors that order it and to the society that condones it, openly or otherwise.

    "The real problems in the world are (1) Secret societies, (2)Secret self governance of professionals. Take those two things away, judges and lawyers become honest and the fake money system falls apart. Politicians become honest and a new money system takes its place.
    You are drawing attention away from the subject of Penny's post and our comments. Did you mean to do this?

    "The benefits of torture are such that it will always be practised.
    There are no benefits, Doug. It sounds like you think it could never happen to you or any of your loved ones.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Hey guys!

    I rewatched the video this morning.
    Which is now my third or fourth time watching it.


    The coercive manner of 'interrogation' used, saw this child completely break down and confess, right down to the use of a knife in the crime.

    Given the fact that the boy did not commit the murder, why would he acknowledge using a knife ?

    Was the idea of the knife implanted during the coercive interrogation?

    I am going to suggest that, yes, the police while interrogating planted the knife idea in his head.

    I am thinking of the mkultra experimentation where trauma was used to induce certain thoughts, actions, behaviours etc.,

    The trauma caused by a coercive interrogation, by trauma I don't necessarily mean a beating, I mean trauma to the mind, to the self, to the psyche could make the mind susceptible to all manner of implanted ideas...including that you had murdered your own sibling.


    Then the question, is the intention of the interrogation to get at the 'truth' or is it to get at a preconceived truth.

    Conceived by the interrogators?

    Again this video makes clear the intention of coercive interrogation is to get at preconceived truth. Not, the truth.

    The police, already had the preconceived 'truth' that the boy killed his sister. then through there coercive methodology they planted their version of truth in this kids brain.

    This brief little video demonstrates there is no real value in coercive interrogation.

    Interrogation equals mind control.

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  7. I don't think the courts should accept it because you never know if the truth or what was desired as the truth came out. I agree that it shouldn't be accepted in the courts for logical reasons.

    But that doesn't mean "It doesn't work" is a universally applicable statement.

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  8. thinking of trauma and 9/11

    recall the replaying of the towers falling, it was to induce trauma in the populace.
    doug, I understand you feel banking and what surrounds it is the issue, but, people need to understand they are manipulated and how they are manipulated everyday of their lives.

    They have to wake up to the manipulation

    Or if I may the coercion applied to them daily.

    I am going to be putting up, what I think is a must listen to interview.

    ReplyDelete

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