Wednesday, March 4, 2009

Vince Li Trial Day 2

2nd- Vince Li Trial Day 2 , again from reporter for the Winnipeg Free press

Defence witness Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg to take stand today in Li mental fitness hearing in Winnipegpg.
Dr Jonathon Rootenberg: University of Toronto, Lecturer
Expected to be a short day
Reporter: Li now being brought in. Describes an immediate hush, save for the clinking of cuffs in this big courtroom.
Dr Rootenberg: tells court Li did not know what he did to McLean was wrong, was "quite psychotic" at time of killing.
Dr Rootenberg: Li suffers from "major mental illness", hearing voices/delusions.
Dr R: Tells court Li was born with illness.
Crown: Can he recover?
Dr R: No. Can only be managed.
Crown: Why kill McLean?
Dr. R: Li's mental illness was not treated. Since killing (he has been) under 24 hr watch. Li NOT faking. (reporters emphasis)
Dr. R: Li believed "God's" hands killed McLean, who Li saw as "demon".
(Did he believe his hands were the hands of God, or his hands were doing God’s work. This is consistent with what the other doctor stated, that Li perceived Mclean as evil??.)
Court hears that Li (believed) he had to separate McLean's body parts so McLean not come back to life.
Reporter: Dr Rootenberg finishes bulk of testimony (questioned?) by Li's lawyer Alan Libman. More extensive medical reports filed as exhibits. (approx 25 minutes passed)
Crown x-exam
Dr R. says in time Li may "process/reconcile" what he did to McLean.
Reporter: Court says Li in only in very early stages of treatment. Possible Li suppressed some memory of McLean's slaying. ( court says or does Dr R say under cross examination?)
Crown: Is Li a high risk?
Witness Dr R: Yes, significant risk.
Crown: Kill again?
Dr. R: No, if (Li) keeps up treatment.
Crown: asking questions about Li's mental history in ONT about five years ago when hospitalized there. Judge says no bearing on case.
Dr. Rootenberg ends testimony. Now in closing arguments.
Defence says Li should go to hospital for treatment, not prison.
Defence says court should find Li Not Criminally Responsible (NCR).
Reporter: If found NCR, (not criminally responsible) which all agree most likely, Li held in secure facility for indefinite time period, perhaps even rest of his life.
Defence finishes it's final (summary, questions????) Now Crown's turn
"This man must be crazy." (reporters opinion?)
Crown attorney is Joyce Dalmyn. She tells QB judge John Scurfield Li meets NCR criteria, he did not appreciate horror of his act.
Judge Scurfield, He adjourns hearing until 10 a.m.(tomorrow) for proper oral decision given high publicity of case.
That was an interesting hour!

I am not sitting in the courtroom but even so, I am getting the sense that this is a production of sorts. Everything pre-agreed upon. Li is going to be declared NCR, both lawyers for the crown and defence agree he is, there is no disputing it. It was decided a month after the crime that Li was "fit for trial". I assume this means he was heavily medicated, medicated enough to get him to be compliant, not necessarily fit, but compliant anyway. From there, he can expediently be tried, I mean 3 days- zero witnesses? He can plead not guilty by reason of insanity, and then he can be locked up, key thrown away.


1st-This article clarifies some of the questions I had yesterday:
Winnipeg beheading killer a 'decent man': Doctor

Yaren, a witness on behalf of the Crown who is the director of forensic psychiatry for both Manitoba and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, has concluded Li should be found not criminally responsible for his actions based on his mental state at the time.

Such a ruling would send him to a hospital, instead of a prison, for an indefinite period.

I am going to include a link to a book here. A book that makes it clear why the mentally ill should not be "behind bars" Why a jail is no place for them. I've read through parts of it, it seems to be applicable to the reasoning in sending Li to a psychiatric institute as opposed to jail.

Criminalizing the Seriously Mentally Ill

Yaren said Li began experiencing psychotic episodes around 2003, including a 2005 incident where he was picked up by police walking down Highway 401 in Ontario, believing he was "following the sun" after shedding most of his possessions.

He was briefly hospitalized in Etobicoke, Ont., but received no further followup after refusing to accept he had an illness or take any treatment, court was told.

DeDelley has said she wants the law changed so anyone found not criminally responsible for a crime still serves time behind bars.

I'll update this post a news becomes available.


  1. All this was going on and this man still qualified for citizenship?

    (sidenote: security word: 'Stralia')

  2. I don't know about mental health issues and citizenship?

    The one thing that I was hoping to find out and hasn't been mentioned was, going on recall, he came in to Canada as some kind of skilled person.

    What was he trained to do?
    Was there any military history?

    'stralia' that's funny.

    someone from the CBC has been hitting the blog,regularly, looks like they are using it as a resource for the vince li story.
    given the crap they put out, they should just use there own crappy info and crappy timeline.

  3. Host Name
    IP Address [Label IP Address]
    Country Canada
    Region Ontario
    City Ottawa
    ISP Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
    Returning Visits 0
    Visit Length Multiple visits spread over more than one day

    all the Li stuff, over approx 5 days.

  4. Lazy bastards - making YOU do all the work! Ha!

    Tell 'em to send YOU a cheque!!

    Actually not a bad idea... oh I am full of them today!

    I dunno about mental illness and citizenship either. Frankly if you are a certified basketcase you shouldn't be allowed in here, except for special circumstances - like you are still a child and no one knows...

    Ach - this whole trial is ridiculous in this case.

    Why the heck didn't the cops just take him out? Period?

    They have no problem killing Polish immigrants in airports...

  5. Yeah, I am keeping watch on their site, the CBC that is, let's see what they put up on this, they had the worst most bogus timeline.

    This trial reeks of show trial, that's what I think.

  6. Just thinking about the judge adjourning to deliver a "proper oral judgement" at 10:00 am tomorrow.

    Too short of a time, to go through all the submitted evidence, and there must be quite a bit of it, think about it, then write up a judgement to be delivered orally by 10:00 am.

    Unless this judge is a speed reader, lots of staff, etc.,

    Doubtful, anyway he has his decision already, it's a done deal. It was done probably quite some time ago. Li is not criminally responsible, lock him up, throw away the key!

    That's my prediction.

  7. I did tell Yuh a few comments back that it was a done deal.

  8. and that is most certainly the way it looks silverfish.